Growing up white, I was conditioned to stay away from discussions about race. It was just a topic that I was supposed to avoid because I was white and it wasn't my place. Of course I learned about black struggles in school and befriended and talked to black people, but bringing up blackness and whiteness on my own as a white girl was very much advised against because it would likely be offensive and start trouble coming from me, regardless of what I said. (Although, I should acknowledge that I do recall having briefly discussed race in some of my writing, interviews, and other arts analysis.)
Like any (white) human, I was raised in a certain environment and have my own views. In the past I may have even been insensitive simply because I just did not understand that I was saying anything wrong due to my white privilege and firsthand ignorance of black experiences. I still might, so I am working on doing better the more aware I become. I apologize for any incorrect or inconsiderate statements or microaggressions I have made.
Because of this though, it just always seemed safer to not say anything at all, making me hesitant to do so. So now seeing everyone calling on white people to speak up is somewhat of a culture shock and change of pace for me. My entire lifetime I was to keep mum about this and now all of a sudden people actually want me to talk about it.
I am usually not one to talk or write about issues, and I still don't consider myself as one to do so. Maybe instead of holding back, we need to be more straightforward in order to move forward together.
In my blog post about understanding privilege, I mention how conversation and listening to others is important regarding racial issues in America. I decided to interview my good friend Breon, whom I have known since high school and now works as a Graduate Coordinator at the Office of Health Promotion at Montclair State University, about the subject in an attempt to learn and educate others in light of current events. Writing is what I always saw as my way of protesting, so this is how I felt would be the best way for me to contribute right now. Hopefully, this will be a step in the right direction to finally eradicate racial biases between our two groups by covering some common points that I often see arise and further unite us. This is the first time I've ever truly felt comfortable and free enough to ask questions about this and discuss this, so I really appreciate this opportunity.
Thank you to Breon for participating in this blog post! I sent her questions and below are her responses.
HISTORY
S: An important thing to distinguish right away is the difference between racism, prejudice, and stereotyping, because these terms are often used interchangeably. How do you define them? What is a black stereotype that upsets you the most and why?
B: Racism is a form of discrimination that involves the systemic oppression of a race and every institution, structure, cultural norm, behavior, and attitude that stems from that. Prejudice is a form of discrimination that involves negative and harmful perceptions, behaviors, and attitudes based on someone’s race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.
Prejudice can be discrimination towards any group. You can be a Catholic/Christian that is prejudiced against Muslims or a teenager that is prejudice against seniors. Technically, you can be Black and show prejudice against White people, but you cannot be Black and racist towards White people because racism involves systemic oppression. Racist White people are racist because they have an automatic advantage (white privilege) in society and can wield that power over others institutionally, structurally, culturally, socially, and as we’ve seen most recently, legally.
Stereotyping is making assumptions about someone based on prejudiced or racist notions. They can be positive or harmful, although I would argue that all stereotypes are harmful because no race, ethnicity, or group of people is a monolith despite having shared cultural and social values. Stereotypes include things like Asians being good at math and science, Hispanic/Latinx people being poor immigrants, and Black people being dangerous, uneducated, and lazy. I find that Black women in particular are faced with a myriad of stereotypes like being loud, aggressive, angry, having bad attitudes, being superficial, hypersexual. But I think the most upsetting stereotype Black people have, especially Black women, is how we are expected to have superhuman strength and impenetrable feelings. We are always supposed to be the strong ones, the ones that can take on the world without any help, and the ones who can go through the most struggle and abuse but still be ok. That stereotype is harmful to the point that it actually kills us. The black maternal mortality rate in this country is high as it is partially due to that stereotype. It’s the reason they treated George Floyd’s body like a rag doll.
S: What is the best way to refer to the black community? Black people, or African Americans? I have experienced arguments for and against both.
B: I feel like white people are afraid to call Black people Black people lol. But African Americans and Black people are not always interchangeable. Because all African Americans are Black people, but not all Black people are African Americans (there's also Afro-Caribbean, African, Afro-Latinx people).
S: Why do you think discussions about race are so intense when compared to discussions about maybe gender and sexuality?
B: Although I do think discussions about gender and sexuality are very heated, discussions about race are always the most volatile because race is something you can’t hide and racism permeates through almost every facet of our culture. You can hide your sexuality and, in some cases, you can hide your gender/gender expression. All of these things are painful, but race is something that someone judges you by as soon as they see you and you can’t avoid it.
Also, you have to consider intersectionality. For example, LGBTQ+ people face their own world of discrimination and pain, but it’s exacerbated as a Black person in the LGBTQ+ community. Black LGBTQ+ people have double the discrimination against them because they exist within the intersection of being Black and being within the LGBTQ+ community. In most cases, race intensifies the discrimination one faces being part of other identities because white privilege trumps everything. You can be LGBTQ+, disabled, a woman, poor, etc. and still benefit from white privilege. That’s just how our country and our world is structured.
S: Is this just a black and white problem, or have you noticed prejudices among various people of color (poc) groups as well? On the same token, is this just an American issue, or is racism and prejudice prominent internationally as well? Does the black community receive the most injustice out of everyone?
B: This is definitely not just a Black and White problem. There are 100% prejudices among non-black people of color. Hispanic/Latinxs, Asians, Middle Easterners, and other non-White groups can be just as racist towards Black people as their White counterparts. And it’s racism (not just prejudice) because these groups either have White people within them (Hispanic/Latinx is an ethnicity, not a race and many Middle Easterners are White) or have a proximity/allyship to whiteness (many paler Asians like Eastern Asians reject their darker Southeast Asian counterparts and dark skin in general – an effect of white supremacy). The colorism that exists within every one of these groups and their respective home countries is another problem that contributes to the darkest hued people, Black people, being seen as inferior. I think that also answers the question of whether this is just an American issue as well.
You can kind of also connect this to the question of whether the Black community receives the most injustice. Darker people are viewed as inferior across the world and Black features such as big butts and full lips were viewed as inferior until White women decided to mimic them. When someone from another race sees a Black person, I think the longest list of preconceived notions pop up out of any other group of people. Those stereotypes do limit us and even endanger us in American and worldwide, and it spurs a host of injustices.
S: Why do you think we have not been as educated about certain things until lately? For example, we learned about Christopher Columbus discovering America, as did previous generations, but then more negatives about that came to light more recently, leading people to want to change his holiday to Indigenous Peoples' Day. (This, and the tearing down of Columbus's statues, is actually angering the Italian American community a bit, because that is the day that celebrates Italian culture.) Why now have we begun to reveal certain truths? Is it as simple as just more and more research unveiling more things? Did people initially want to keep future generations in the dark? How do we know what's truth and what isn't?
B: These truths have always been there, but when tragedies that get the attention of the whole nation/world happen like what happened to George Floyd, Amhaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor (especially when they occur all at the same time like these did) they are catapulted into the mainstream and have a much bigger spotlight on them. It is not new information that Columbus is significantly responsible for the genocide of indigenous people in the Americas. I feel as if Italian Americans have other heroes and other days that they can shift to where it doesn't venerate a colonizer who literally destroyed peoples and cultures. Tearing down a statue is symbolic. Tearing down whole societies of indigenous people for no reason others than to conquer, kill, and subjugate them is literal.
And yes, people absolutely want to keep certain truths from being discovered or explored. Again, what Columbus did is not new or hidden information but it is well documented and researched information that a lot of people choose to ignore to maintain their own sense of normalcy and tradition. A lot of the things being revealed and investigated now are easily accessible in books, articles, documentaries, videos, etc. They're just not taught in schools or acknowledged by mainstream media. However, you have to use discernment because there's a lot of different rhetoric and straight up misinformation out there. Some things are just fact, but other things you have to use your mental, emotional, and social intelligence to sift through. I personally think the best way to do this is every time you come across some information and it's not from a reputable journal or organization, or if you know it's from a very politically biased organization, fact check it through Google. Look up articles and if it you come across information from reputable sources that say the same thing, then it's most likely well-researched and credible.
S: How do you respond to white people believing that they should not have to apologize or be held accountable for their ancestors’ actions, such as slavery, since they had no personal involvement in it?
B: White people have a responsibility that they must accept if they want white supremacy to be a thing of the past. They have to realize their privilege, they have to work on undoing the ideologies that harm Black people and other races and groups that have been subjugated, oppressed, and brainwashed into thinking they’re inferior. Yes, you are not responsible for your ancestors’ actions, but you do have a responsibility to address how you benefit from them. White people benefit everyday from the systems, institutions, cultural norms, societal norms, beauty ideals, etc. that their ancestors established.
It’s like when people say there are “good cops” and “not all cops are bad”. Yes, there are good people that are cops. But even a good person that benefits from an inherently racist structure (which the law enforcement in this country is) is part of something that oppresses others. The idea of police officers in this country originated from slavecatchers. Until this day, you can see the resemblance between a modern police badge and slavecatcher badges. That is why we say there’s no such thing as a good cop, because that’s the foundation that police officers stand on and act on.
PERSONAL EXPERIENCES
S: Please take me through your day as a black individual/woman. What are some of your common experiences? What are precautions that you have to take that I as a white person/woman may not have to think about? Did your mom raise you in a way to help prepare you to live as a black woman in America? If so, what lessons did she teach you?
B: I’ve never had a blatantly racist interaction happen to me, but I can remember tons of microaggressions that I had experienced and witnessed throughout my life, which are in some ways just as dangerous. Racism is not just hating someone because of their skin color/appearance – it’s also thinking their history, culture, education, intellect, social abilities, and so many other attributes are inferior. I went natural (meaning I started wearing my hair in its natural state) in the summer of 2011 right before my junior year of college started. Personally, it was one of the best decisions I ever made because for the first time ever, I think, I really loved how my hair looked. I hated how thin and stringy my hair was when it was straightened and I was over the dated Shirley Temple style curls that I got every time I went to my mom’s hairdresser. For a lot of black women, it’s the opposite – they grew up hating their natural hair because of the beauty norms that are instilled in them from a young age. For me, it was liberation and a huge part of gaining real confidence. However, I know every time I go outside, there are people in general – White, Black, Latinx, etc. – that judge me for wearing an afro. Most people admire or appreciate it, but there are still people that make backhanded comments because they think afro-textured hair is undesirable. I even had my uncle ask me “if I go to the hairdresser to get that style”. And it was not in an intrigued way – he went to college in the 70s when afros were very popular - but a way that indirectly said “it looks like you don’t do anything to your hair”. The internalized racism Black people have because Whiteness has been taught as the standard and the norm is a whole other story – even for those who think they can recognize it.
Other example of a common experience I’ve had includes being viewed as articulate and intelligent for a Black woman, or on the flipside, being viewed by some Black people as trying to be/wanting to be White because I speak well. Another one is being judged for my shyness, quietness, and reserved nature since, as I explained earlier, there is a certain expectation for Black women to be loud, boisterous, etc. I don’t talk about this much at all, but I actually stopped physically going to my job when I worked in New York in 2017 because a white girl (I think she was from Long Island – which is known for being racist and segregated) psychologically bullied me for being quiet and not wanting to converse at the workplace. I’ve actually gotten over a lot of the social anxiety I had growing up, but all the feelings that I thought I had worked to dissipate came rushing back because the people at work would have conversation rife with microaggressions towards black people (it was predominately white) and just ignorance in general that made me uncomfortable.
My mom definitely raised me in a way to prepare me to navigate the world as a Black woman and just as a woman and a person in general. But one of the main ways she did in terms of being a Black woman was just knowing my heritage beyond the skewed, White-centered history they teach in school. She was always exposing me to black stories, black art, black inventions, and especially black music of every genre. I think listening to everything growing up from old school soul to funk to R&B to jazz to gospel to black opera singers was one of the biggest things that showed me that blackness was not a monolith. Also, encouraging me to critically think for myself was huge as a Black woman in a world that’s constantly telling you who to be and constantly trying to put you in a box. Although I had trouble with being secure in myself as a person in general, I always was secure in the fact that I was a Black person. And eventually, I realized that once you’re secure in yourself and your Blackness, you don’t let anyone else define that for you.
S: If you are comfortable sharing, do you recall a significant moment when you or someone you are close to were on the receiving end of discrimination or prejudice that has really stayed with you? How did you respond to that situation? For that matter, how have been your personal encounters with police officers, if any?
B: One situation that comes to mind is when my friends and I were traveling in Japan and South Korea last summer and there were many instances people on the trains not wanting to sit next to us. It was more so in South Korea than Japan, and I assumed it was because there’s a more international presence in Japan, but it happened in both places. It was definitely indicative not only of the xenophobia there but the particular aversion to Black people. Even worse, my friend who has deep dark skin faced it more blatantly. She would sit down and people already sitting down would get up whereas that wouldn’t necessarily happen to me (I’m dark brown skinned) or my two other friends (one is the same complexion as me and the other is a light brown Peruvian-American girl) that were on the trip. There was nothing really done or could be done to respond to the situation but it’s just an example of how racism comes in many different forms.
Thankfully, I haven’t had many encounters with the police themselves, but I definitely have had family members that have for various reasons. I won’t go into too much detail, but I always felt as if during discussions with the police, they always have a sense of arrogance and entitlement. They are very aware of their power and the advantage they have over citizens, especially Black ones. I honestly feel as if a lot of police officers get into the profession because they want to exert power over others. The video of George Floyd exemplifies that and the videos I continue to see of police brutality towards the protestors do as well.
S: As a white person, I will confess that it is usually difficult for me to talk about or act on black issues because I feel uncomfortable and unqualified to do so. I do not want to come across as whitesplaining, a white savior, or plain ignorant or accidentally offensive. I feel either that it is not my territory, or I feel like I am the enemy, so therefore I am more likely to take a step back and survey the situation from afar. White people have potential to say or do something hurtful without even realizing it.
I am seeing the “silence is violence” phrase lately, as well as Desmond Tutu’s quote, “If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.” Do you agree with these quotes? What is your advice to white people and other non-black people who are afraid to say anything or get involved? Does the black community even want others to get involved? In short, because I have seen both, should white people speak up or shut up?
B: I wholeheartedly agree with both quotes. Silence is literally violence. Without the video evidence, without calling out those who should be accountable, without the protests, without the noisemaking, the shift that is happening right now would not be transpiring and the demand for justice worldwide would not be taking place. And if you’re neutral or indifferent about what’s happening right now, you are on the side of the oppressor. The reason racial injustice and systemic racism as a whole has persisted throughout generations is not so much because of the overtly racist people as the people whose privilege gives them the allowance to not care. While Black people have been oppressed since the inception of this country and in every aspect and arena of life that has developed since then, White people have been able to live as if these problems don’t exist, or even worse, not relevant to them. The bubble of privilege allows them not to have to engage with it or worry about it much less try to understand it. So don’t be afraid to say “I don’t understand”, but after that the follow up should be “but I’m going to learn and educate myself so that I can get an idea”. Because saying nothing is absolutely part of the problem and is a privilege within itself.
I would say to white people who want to educate themselves on systemic racism, white privilege, and ways to help is by first of all, not expecting Black people to do all the work for you. You should be able to ask your Black friends questions, but they aren’t encyclopedias. Do the work to educate yourself, but also realize you will never become fully culturally competent because you’ll never have the full lived experience of a Black person in their skin. Never stop trying to learn and empathize, and that goes for anything. I personally believe that we cannot have a revolution without at least having some white allies, because unfortunately, that is always who has the sway in terms of policymaking. I believe that Black people can spur change on their own, as they always have, but for every true revolution (ending of slavery, segregation, Civil Rights Movement, etc.) we have had white allies that have helped us.
S: I often see arguments from the white community, particularly the older members, about the times when white people are attacked or killed by black people, police, etc., and that these incidents may not elicit as much news coverage or protests. As an Italian American, I grew up hearing stories about how Italian immigrants were persecuted when they first came to America, but no protests or anything like that took place for them.
I understand that these events are not necessarily comparable because black people are way more often targeted for their skin color to this day, but as a white person I can also understand that white perspective. What is a middle ground that both groups can reach to form a mutual understanding about this?
B: I understand that Italian Americans and Irish Americans faced their own level of persecution, but at the end of the day, ethnically Italian and Irish people are white and have white privilege. Both of those groups have a history of persecuting Black people even as they were going through their own persecution in this country, and as you stated, the persecution for being Black is on a widespread scale until this day. It has never stopped. We cannot blend into being a white American like Italian Americans and Irish Americans have. People see skin color before they see your ethnicity.
As for protests, every protest I can think of has been started by the targeted group and then spread out to others. Black people had their own movement (Civil Rights Movement) and people from other backgrounds started to participate in it. Same with Black Lives Matter. White women did the same with the feminist and suffragette movement (and I say white women because many of them were not inclusive of non-white women until much later, if ever). Irish people had uprisings in Ireland that helped them overthrow the oppression they faced by the English, but I’m not certain if Irish Americans had the same type of movement. Same for Italian Americans. But it’s hard to even compare now because both of those ethnic groups have blended into white American society.
CURRENT EVENTS
S: Speaking as a woman, I know that it is easy to have animosity towards men sometimes, so I understand if black people have animosity towards white people sometimes. It is understandable to at times harbor a dislike towards a group that has harmed your own. But is hating an oppressor, or anyone for that matter, ever justified? Also, even though men benefit from male privilege, I would not want to be a man. But as a black person living in this climate, do you sometimes wish that you were white in order to reap some of the benefits of white privilege?
B: I've never wished I was white. I've maybe wondered what it would be like, but I never wanted to physically be white or even lighter. Even when I didn't have an advanced understanding of all the systematic oppression Black people face, I never felt as if I wanted to be white and I don't know with the knowledge that I do have. Even with my social anxiety growing up, the anxiety never extended to what I thought about myself physically. And I have never wished that I was in the position to have white privilege either because white privilege is inherently violent and hateful whether it's conscious or unconscious.
Hating people is never justified, but hating the systems that are in place that oppress people is always justified. People wouldn't have animosity towards white people if they didn't continue exercise their privilege in every area of life. And of course, there are white people that are aware of their privilege and are doing the actual, genuine work to listen, educate themselves, and dismantle that privilege and the privilege of those around them (i.e., the TikToks of white kids confronting their racist parents), but it doesn't end there. Just like Black people spend a lifetime learning how to operate in a society where everything is White-centered, White people need to learn how to check their privilege and consider others who don't look and act like them.
S: Is violence sometimes needed to get the point across, or are peaceful protests usually sufficient? What are your thoughts about riots and looting? As a health professional, how do you feel about these protests taking place during a pandemic?
B: Protesting is sufficient, period. I am a peaceful person and I know love and compassion is ultimately the answer to everything, but I'm also a very realistic person. Peace isn't always the answer. It's a hard pill to swallow but it's the truth. As MLK put it very clearly and concisely, "a riot is the language of the unheard". There are obviously some anarchists out there who just want to see the world burn and are co-opting the movement just to cause chaos, and they are actually distracting from the message that actual protestors are trying to get across, but when you see Black people rioting and looting their own community, it means something beyond the image they portray on the media.
Most people are not rioting and looting because they can, they are rioting and looting because they have to or they want to be heard. You always should look at the root cause of things. Black people in communities like Ferguson, Minneapolis, and other places are poor to middle-class working citizens who work day in and day out to pursue a better life for themselves and have to work 5x harder for less. People work day in and day out to stay in the same position in life for decades, unable to move up either because higher education is either inaccessible, too expensive, or too time consuming for people with families. You have lack of access to healthy food and an environment conducive to physical activity and enjoyment, which leads to physical and mental health issues. Americans are taught that material wealth and access makes you more valuable as a person, and if you don't have that, it's your fault. Black people have been physically, psychologically, financially, environmentally, and politically oppressed despite being the most hardworking and innovative people in America for centuries, and then they're are told that they don't work hard enough and that they are lazy and self-victimizing. As you know, busting your butt without any thanks or recognition on the level that you deserve, and even more so, without credit or rightful compensation, is infuriating, demeaning and demoralizing. Even further, you're told that it's your fault that despite all the work you've done and that you aren't valuable because you can't get past the obstacles you face. A lot of poverty itself is caused by systemic racism. That's why there are people tearing things up, because they aren't being seen or heard otherwise.
As someone who works in the public health space, I feel as if I've seen more proper distribution of hand sanitizer and enforcement of wearing masks and social distancing at protests than I've seen anywhere else. Even at the one I went to, everyone was wearing a mask and staying a considerable distance from each other while marching. There's people not following social distancing rules and taking the proper precautions whether they're at a protest or not.
S: Seeing people come together and make history during protests is a beautiful thing, but sometimes I have little faith in protests, petitions, donation links, and emails/letters to authority these days. I say this as someone who participated in protests and signed petitions in the past. I feel like they eventually go ignored and forgotten and ultimately will not bring back lost lives. But then again, history has taught us that activity like this does work. Could you please explain how actions like these make a difference? Do you think they do? Are there any links that you would like to recommend?
B: The point is to stay consistent with protests, petitions, donations, and the demand that things need to change. I think they key is to not let up until we see actual change in systems and policies come. We've seen unprecedented results on some level in terms of brands, companies, corporations, publications etc. being held accountable for their actions and representation not only in their ads/promotion, but in on their actual teams. Police departments are also being held accountable all over the country - some police are resigning because they are actually being held accountable for the unnecessary power and force they wield over citizens. The Minneapolis police department is in the process of being abolished. The media has stopped business as usual to have conversations and dialogue about what's going on, not necessarily because they want to, but because they have no choice due to the pressure that's being but on them by the public. All of those things are seeds of change. Change doesn't come unless there's a catalyst and permanent change doesn't come unless there's consistency. The Civil Rights movement didn't last a few weeks, it lasted years. The Montgomery Bus Boycott itself didn't last a week, it lasted a little over a year.
I recommend signing petitions online, but I also recommend doing more proactive things like educating yourself via books, documentaries, and movies, buying from black owned businesses, and just simply continuing to bring up the fight isn't over. Continue to post about injustices and continue to seek out information. People look down on "just posting" but social media has been the biggest tool in terms of elevating modern movements. If it stays in people's consciousness, people have to address it.
S: It often seems like when bad things happen, people get angry, but then the anger subsides and we resume our normal lives until the next bad thing happens, and then we get angry again. Or does this anger never subside? What is considered “normal life?”
This has been going on for years. Will we ever finally overcome racial tension in America, or is this doomed to be an infinite cycle? Is there another way you propose we handle things like this in the future?
B: I think there's a huge divide between what White Americans perceive as normal life and what Black Americans, and really anyone who's not White, perceive as normal life. Even when police brutality isn't broadcasted on television, Black people have to deal with racism subtlety and directly. Again, systemic racism pervades every area of life. There's things that are just ingrained into societal norms that are inherently anti-Black like beauty standards, media representation, work environments, quality of education, quality of healthcare, quality of housing, and more. Most White people don't even have to think about those things because everything is already centered around them. They are the "norm".
I think this the beginning of real change. As I stated before, I feel as if we're seeing a shift where people and corporate/institutional entities are being held accountable for their actions because they finally have a tremendous, unified public pressure on them. But again, it has to be consistent.
S: I've seen that there are black people who are Republicans, conservative, Trump supporters, against the Black Lives Matter movement, etc. What do you think about this? This seems a little uncommon, and maybe even unexpected.
B: There are Black people who are Republicans, which I wouldn't mind if it wasn't for the fact that so many Republicans have become so comfortable with openly and directly promoting and enabling dangerous figures like the president and other right wing commentators who spout racist, sexist, classist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic (the list goes on...) rhetoric every chance they get. I'm not saying Democrats are perfect either (they're far from...I consider myself independent and I'm on file as such) but I have to vote for whoever the Democratic candidate in any seat of government. The Republicans have just become so fundamentally corrupt and bigoted (in my opinion) that I have no choice. So when I see Black people who are Republicans and specifically Trump supporters, I know there is some self-hatred involved, which is unfortunate. As I explained before, Black people are not a monolith, including politically, and they should have the right to be Republicans. But when your political party of choice has a leader that has called predominately Black and brown countries "s***hole counties", has openly said he "grabs women by the pussy", calls white nationalists "fine people", and criminalizes looters who steal merchandise instead of police officers that have unjustifiably taken the lives of citizens on camera and you agree, than that's a problem. Especially if you're included in a group of people that he could care less about. I think a lot of Black Republicans believe they're a special exception to their white counterparts when in reality, they're almost always used as a token to show non-Republicans that they're not racist or close-minded.
S: Have you ever noticed any racial outrage that you personally felt was out of place or not a big deal?
B: There are a few times where I feel as if people on an individual level have looked too deeply into a situation to find racism within in. But as I've gotten older and have learned more, you realize that a lot of things are actually microaggressions or linked to systemic racism. However, I do think there are a few situations where certain Black individuals in the public eye have used a movement to push their own agenda and perform fake outrage.
S: Have you seen things get better in your own lifetime? For instance, were there things that happened or lacked when you were a child that you now see has actually been accomplished or improved for your community?
B: This is a really complex question because there are obviously things that have improved but there are a lot of things that are persist from 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago. I think social media has been the catalyst for making a lot of movements that have empowered Black people and especially Black women, especially those who are millennials and Gen Z. Movements like Black Lives Matter, #blackgirlmagic, and even Me Too (which was started by a Black woman) have encouraged Black women to see themselves as beautiful, worthy, and also as multifacted humans that deserve respect as well as love and joy. Also, just the accessibility to images, stories, and ideas on social media from Black people of all walks of life is inspiring and has allowed us to see ourselves reflected in a multitude of ways.
OPPORTUNITY AND CULTURE
S: More diversity representation is taking place in arts and education, which is a fantastic thing. However, is there ever a possibility that maybe a person of color would win an award over a white person more so because that person is a poc in order to achieve diversity and avoid controversy or maybe a poc is more likely to receive a scholarship than a white person who is also in need of it? Or are these just myths? How can we determine that roles, awards, etc., are fairly distributed by diversity based on talent alone?
B: If the Academy Awards or the Grammys continued to give awards based on talent alone, which is what is should be based on, but continue to function with the internal structures and hierarchies they have in place, all the nominees and winners will continue to be White. That's because you have to look at the root cause of why things are the way they are. Who votes for the nominees. The "academies" from each of those institutions are both filled with older White people who have a narrow, elitist view of what artistry is. If we diversify those boards not only by race/ethnicity, but by age, gender, sexual orientation, industry position, genre, and individual perspective we will get more diverse nominees in every aspect.
A fear of mine is that from now on, when Black people get nominated for things, people will say the same thing they say about affirmative action - that's it's just to fill a diversity quota. But if they believe that White people are the only ones capable of creating "real" art, they will never see Black artists and other non-White artists as valid.
S: I know that white privilege exists, but is it possible for certain things to work out in poc’s favor? Does black privilege exist?
B: Black people cannot have privilege because they're black because Black people cannot exert systemic power over others based on race. The only way Black people are privileged is if there's an intersection of another identity involved. For example, Black men have privilege over Black women, Black upper-middle class people have privilege over Black poor people, Black cis hetero people have privilege over Black LGBTQ people, and Black people without a disability have privilege over Black people who do have them.
If anything works out in a Black or POC favor, like an award or a scholarship, it's because White people have had a disproportionate advantage regarding the same opportunity.
S: Let us talk about black jokes really quick. These types of jokes seem to occur more among black and white men than black and white women. When are these jokes appropriate and when do they cross the line? Are they always offensive?
B: There's a very thin line between funny and offensive, especially now that people are being held accountable for what they say and do more than ever, which I know a lot of comedians and other personalities hate because it "limits" them. But honestly, if you have to be racially or culturally offensive, or homophobic or transphobic, to get joke off, then you're probably not as inventive as you think you are. I feel like jokes about race as best told within the race of people. I feel like really talented comedians (or funny people in general) regardless of race can walk that line but it's a very thin line.
As far as real life goes, I feel like there's people who are funny for everyone to enjoy the joke and then there's people who constantly tell offensive jokes to be edgy and contrary. You can usually tell the difference between someone who wants to be jovial and someone who's being obnoxious.
S: Do you recommend any books, media, YouTube channels, podcasts, etc. that help educate about black experiences well? Do you have a favorite quote about black experiences? Who is your favorite black influencer?
B: I just did an extensive list of black owned businesses, creatives, entrepreneurs on my personal IG (@breonmenons). Included are pages that have podcasts, most of them health wellness themed, like Alex Elle, Black Girl In Om, Transparent Black Girl, HeyFranHey, and others that stress the importance of mental health and self-care. Another podcast that's great for young entrepreneurs is Dreams in Drive by my friend Rana. I also follow a lot of Black influencers that emphasize healthy eating like @sweetpotatosoul, @iamsurvivingvegan, @sophia_roe, and @blackgirlsintraderjoes. Also, I just followed a Black girl on YT that does natural hair tutorial, product reviews, and other things like art called StarPuppy and I really like her because she kind of represents a nerdy, artsy, quirky, yet down to earth young Black woman that you usually don't get to see doing that type of channel. There's definitely a part of myself I see in her. I mention all of these because I believe they represent different aspects of blackness in different areas of life.
As far as books that offer more of an education on the black experience itself, I think one that stays with me is one that I had to read in undergrad called "Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In The Cafeteria?" by Beverly Daniel Tatum about why Black, Latinx, and other people who are considered minorities are segregated within every aspect of life from White people and the dynamics that go into that.
As far as media, I would watch I Am Not Your Negro (the James Baldwin documentary) and The 13th Amendment (the Ava DuVernay doc).
As far as a quote, I think my favorite quote right now is by Audre Lorde, a black feminist writer, that goes "If I didn't define myself for myself, I would be crunched into other people's fantasies for me and eaten alive". In a society that's constantly telling you how, what, and who to be as a Black person, a woman, and particularly a Black woman, I feel like it's more important that ever to define ourselves and stand by that definition. Also, it is critical in these times, as information is being spouted everywhere, to do your own research and form your own opinions and stand firm in your convictions because if you just parrot the opinions of others, you fall into the trap of having others define you as well.
WHAT'S NEXT?
S: I often see people express disappointment in celebrities, particularly white (male) celebrities with huge platforms, when they do not acknowledge issues right away, at all, or as they deem enough or correctly, on social media.
To me, people should post because they want to, not because they feel like they have to, they see everyone else doing it, or just to appease others. I also feel that people should not really rely on celebrities to speak for them on any issue, not just racial ones. But then again, I am also not a poc fan of white celebrities. I am trying to put myself in their shoes to gather how they see their favorites handle this. I recognize that my point of view is different, and I also understand that people are entitled to their feelings, so I want to be sensitive to this. I have seen claims that celebrity influence could more likely incite widespread positive change, which makes sense too.
Should people, especially those with large followings, be obligated to acknowledge certain issues on social media at all times? What should people consider when/before posting about them? Is there any specific way we should go about this?
B: I definitely believe that celebrities do not have to acknowledge every single issue or really any issue because at the end of the day, their job is to entertain in some way, shape, or form and that's it. They do not owe us anything about their personal lives or personal views. The ones who constantly share (or overshare) do so by choice, and I think that has lent to a culture of entitlement from the general public, but they are not obligated to do so. However, I do think that if you're given that huge of a platform and don't ever think, "You know what? I really have the position and the opportunity to change or inspire people's perceptions and even their actions. Let me stand up for what's right or what I think is important...", there is a selfishness and a lack of consciousness there. I do feel for them in that respect. Now, if you don't say anything, you're made out to be a bad person - which IS true if you don't confront racism, sexism, homophobia and other forms of discrimination that cause violence in society. Celebs aren't obligated to say anything and nor should they be required to, but at the same time, I feel like if you have that big of a platform, it should be an incentive to do so. But making a statement on social media isn't equivalent to your actions in real life if they don't match. There's celebrities and companies that will parade around as if they're for a cause, but then their actions will say otherwise. Vice versa, there are celebrities who don't say anything, but then they're always putting their actions behind causes. So it's actually a greyer area than it seems.
Also, there are people/celebrities who mean well but their statements come off poorly worded or ignorant. People aren't perfect but if they are hesitant about how something may come across, either leave it out or do a little bit of research first before pressing "send". A quick Google search of "is it offensive to..." or "it is it right" to say gives you quick insight on how a person from the group you're addressing might perceive what you're saying. And it sounds silly, but I do it all the time with things I'm uncertain about. You should never feel shamed about informing yourself. I think the key is too balance the truth of what you want to say with new information that you've learned.
S: How and in what ways can our generation and younger peacefully educate older generations with a different mindset who may be set in their ways about these kind of issues?
B: It's harder talking to older generations, or anyone who has a set opinion on something, because again, they don't want to let go of the normalcy that they've been taught or created for themselves. A lot of racism, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of hatred goes on not because people are actively those things, but they actively participate in the systems that uphold them. The best way to peacefully educate older generations or anyone who participates in everyday actions that contribute to upholding any stereotypes, beauty standards, language, etc. that is birthed from systems of power that try to undermine people is to respectfully point it out to them and remind them that it's wrong. Which can be tough to do but necessary. I have people in my family that can say misogynist, homophobic, and transphobic things and I do my best to address it. It has to be the same for people who have racists in their families. I truly believe that you can do this in a respectful way that isn't condescending or unbearable.
Also, make them aware of things that are happening. If they don't think somethings real, there's a lot (maybe too much) of video evidence of so many injustices that go on that you can show them. A lot of times this is unnecessary, but if it gets to that point, show them.
S: I always felt that just being a good person and treating people right was enough on my part to contribute to change and overcome any obstacle. Is it?
B: You can be a well-meaning person and still hurt others. It's a hard thing to swallow but just existing as a good person isn't enough. You have to actively overcome challenges, not just stand and wait on the sidelines for it to be moved. How can you contribute if you don't give? We have to actively fight and oppose racism, sexism, colorism, homophobia, transphobia, and other societal barriers. Treating others with kindness is only the beginning. And even that can be superficial and performative when you're not addressing or acknowledging privileges you or maybe even the other person may have. Acknowledge that we are not "all the same". To me, that is the true beauty of life - that we are all very different but we can find commonalities. That how real connection, community, and progress is made.
S: Is there anything that you would like to include that we have not discussed? Are there any additional ways that people can help the black community?
B: A lot has been discussed, but I just wanted to note that the simplest way someone can be an aid to the black community, in my opinion, is to listen. People need to listen instead of defending and reacting and projecting - which actually applies to so many other things as well. Also, knowing that you can never be fully culturally competent about a culture that's different than the ones you experience. Like I would never be able to give you a full, nuanced rundown on being an Italian-American woman from New Jersey even if I immersed myself in it because I have not lived it. Even I can't speak for the full range of the Black experience because being a millennial African-American (cis) woman from New Jersey is only one tiny niche of it. My experiences, opinions, and perspectives on being Black will not be the same as a Black man the same age as me, or any Black Gen X'er or Boomer, or a Black person from the South, or a Black LGBTQ person, or a Black person who is in a different socioeconomic class than me. That's how nuanced it gets, and it goes back to cultures/groups of people not being a monolith. Listen to people's stories and perspectives that are different than yours. That's how you broaden your scope and your thinking. From there, you can start to form ways to help on a deeper level.
S: While we are here, is there anything that you would like to plug? How can people follow you?
B: I own a small business - a indie nail polish and product brand called Tinted Paradise Nail Colors (www.tintedparadise.com). We have vegan, cruelty-free, 10-free polishes that are colorful, vibrant, unique additions to any nail collection. I also have a health and wellness IG called AFRO.GIRL.LOVELY (@afro.girl.lovely) where I document my health and wellness journey and share related info.
*Breon and I covered a lot of areas here, but I feel that there are plenty of other discussions to be had as well. If the opportunity arises, we may write a Part 2. Thank you very much for reading! -Stefanie
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