Responses to "Hey, Guys!..."

I posted my piece about the term "guys" on Facebook awhile ago and got the following responses. I found them pretty interesting, so I decided to post them here. In the responses I had a very intellectual discussion with my cousin Jimmy, who is a fellow writer and critic.
Enjoy the discussion!

Jimmy:

I've thought about this small issue for years. Normally I try to keep things collective, if there are both men and women, I use neutral group terms such as "everyone" because I realize some woman could be irked by by being called a guy; I've done it for years. But then I've noticed it seems that EVERYONE uses the term "guys" often. My family, friends, on TV shows, girls even. It seems to me that the term "guys," despite its original connotation, has evolved into a universal term for most people. I mean, if a group of women call each other "guys," so carelessly, then something tells me that they're pretty mellow and they've excepted being termed as "guy." Thus everyone is more comfortable with it... Either that or people today are just lazy with their vocabulary.

Stef:

Yeah...i've used the term "guys" plenty of times in my life and I'm a girl...but i'm wondering if it is something that I as a woman shouldn't accept as a norm

Jimmy:

I wouldn't think too deeply into it. I'd just keep trying not to offend as many people as possible and let others worry about it.

Stef:

Do you think the term "guys" is offensive? lol i know i am probably thinking too deeply

Jimmy:

I'll be honest with you, with the huge double standard these days concerning gender rolls, I don't think women should be offended when they're called "guys" along side other men. If I'm the speaker and the group is 100% girls, saying "guys" would be too weird for me, but if there's a single guy in the group of girls, then I'd say "folks," because I know if I said "girls," that man would be pissed off because in America, a man wearing a skirt is effed up. Which is why I try to be politically correct when speaking.
But the reason I say 'double standard' is because woman have accomplished so much in this country since then. Women are running for office, they're in the army, working tough jobs, running businesses. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a woman with a great image became President with in the next few elections because women have accomplished so much. Meanwhile, a lot of men are still worried about being 'manly' and 'wearing the pants' in their family. But you know what I say? "Real men wear pink." You like cooking? Go ahead! Is sewing fun? Then go do it! Do you have a pink sweater that you think looks positively fantabulous? Wear the damn thing! As long as you don't cross dress, then you're cool with me.

But yeah, I don't think women should be offended, as long as they're not being called "guy" personally. Now if you called a group of females "boys," THEN you're asking for trouble.

Stef:

Interesting. Yeah I've been wondering lately what is considered male/female attire and why and who determined it (cross dressing comment). Also, in response to your comment about women accomplishing all these jobs, do you think women strive for jobs men have just to feel adequate as people? Meaning, do you think women want these jobs because it is what makes men successful because being successful in a man's job makes them adequate because it's a "man's world" or is it what they truly want as individuals because they just want to do it?

Jimmy:

I think most women who strive to be successful want to achieve their own personal goals, not because they want to prove they're as good as men, but because it's better for them; They make more money for themselves or their family which gives them luxury. Plus, was there ever a person who DIDN'T want to be successful or in power?
Obviously there are some women who are fueled by their desire to achieve success because they want to prove they're as good as men. And it all comes down to men wanting to be the dominate gender. If I was a girl and I wanted a position and a guy told me that I couldn't handle it because I was a girl. Obviously I'd want to prove the bastard wrong.

Stef:

Yeah that's the point i am trying to make. Because it feels like sometimes women base themselves on what men do...like, what men do in this society is what is considered the goal one must reach...like maybe women model themselves according to what a man's level is because it is the "default" in society

Jimmy:

I think so. History also fuels certain women; Woman weren't even allowed to vote until the 1920s' (?) I believe. And before the 60s, women were seen as mere housewives, a person to look after the house and cook dinner, so really it's not surprising that women strive for success because of recent history.

Should women be bitter today because of how history has treated them? I don't think so, because woman are a more relevant force today than ever. But men worrying about being one-upped by a lady doesn't help much either.

Jack:

Women are, and always have been relevent. Our history books ignore them.

And as for 'mere housewives'. If a woman ever had the luxury to just cook dinner and stay at home - she would have been very well off, financially.

Stef:

What some women argue though is the fact that it seems that some of society thinks that cooking and cleaning and raising children is all were are good for. I wouldn't say women are always relevant because of how they are/were disregarded of rights, considered secondary to men. There are still some stereotypes.

Jack:

All of our institutions treat (or treated until very recently) women as subservient to men - the Church (what ever religion), government, marrige...

Stef:

Exactly. That is part of my argument. I agree women are becoming more equal to men nowadays...in fact, the present is greatest time for women because it is the most powerful women have ever been in history because of we have evolved...but there are still some issues to work on

Got a question for you both: Do you think the term "guys" should not be used at all due to sexism, generalization, and categorization, or do you think it is not a big deal and that people should use it because it's just another way of greeting people?

Jimmy:

Like I said, I personally wouldn't use it when referring to a mixed gender group, and I think it's generally more polite to say "folks" instead. I wouldn't consider calling a mixed gender group "guys" sexist these days, but overall I wouldn't encourage it because it's more polite to be collective. So overall, yes.

Thank you to those who gave me feedback!

"Hey, Guys!": Just a Fun Greeting, or a Derogatory Phrase?

Tonight my father brought something to my attention. The two of us, along with my mother and aunt, went out to eat at an Italian restaurant. He enjoyed himself and had a good meal, but one thing irked him: our waiter kept addressing us as "guys" and my father was the only man there. Nothing against the waiter, for he did a good job serving us, but my father found fault with this because he's a food writer and notices things like this. He felt that instead the waiter should have referred to us as "folks" to make the term more collective. At first I didn't see the big deal with this because "guys" is such a general term, and I think I have addressed both my female and male friends as "guys" from one time or another. I think I may have also addressed you, my faithful readers, as such once or twice as well.

But then my father told me something that somewhat altered my thinking. What if the table had three men and one woman, and the waiter addressed us as "ladies?" Then all of a sudden it becomes weird. Why is it that it is so normal for us to call groups of people regardless of gender "guys," which is regarded as a male term, but we would never call groups of people "ladies" unless they are women, which is regarded as a female term?

Being the feminist that I am, this weighs on me further. Is addressing everybody as "guys" the social norm because we still live in such a patriarchal society? Should I be offended by this? As a woman, when I use the word "guys," am I insulting myself? I say this because after thinking about this now, I am kind of considering "guys" a sexist term. I never really thought of the term "guys" as sexist that much, but I'm having second thoughts about using it now.

This idea reminds me of the lyrics to Madonna's song "What it Feels Like for a Girl":
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading

Source

Is this the same thing? It's okay for us to call people "guys" but the title "ladies" or even "girls" is only reserved for females. Is it an insult to be called "girls" because it is degrading to be a girl and is it okay to call anybody "guys" because it is okay to be a "guy?"

Is the simple word "guys" symbolic of a bigger picture and we use it without even realizing it because we are so used to it being part of our culture?